Tiger vs Panther

Xander Cade · Post by **Xander Cade** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 03:59

I'm trying to find a reason to buy a Tiger but, no matter which way I look at it, I can't see a reason to take the Tiger over the Panther so, I have to ask, what point is there in buying a Tiger?

Both ships, at first glance, are identical except that the Panther carries 32 Fighters. Same price, same speed, same shields, same weapons generator, same cargo, same acceleration, same turning...

On closer inspection, the Panther has less forward guns, but more guns overall. Because they both have the same weapons generator this means that the Tiger can sustain an attack for longer. BUT the Panther can carry 32 fighters so, to use a RPG term, depending on the type of fighters and their loadout, the Panther still has more DPS.

What am I missing?

jimlpearce · Post by **jimlpearce** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 04:05

A sense of adventure...

try the tiger... what you said doesn't make it bad. In truth I like both ships. Having 8 IBLs permanently at the end of your trigger finger definitely has it's merits.

Xander Cade · Post by **Xander Cade** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 04:11

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Tiger is "bad", I just don't seem to be able to find a reason to buy one instead of a Panther. The fact that I bought a Panther is irrelevant to the question, too, because I wanted a carrier.

Another factor I forgot to count is the enormous cost of fully outfitting a Panther with weapons and fighters. I suppose that's a big one... 190+ million credits for a full compliment of off-the-shelf, and therefore half-armed, M3+ is nothing to laugh at.

Rilder · Post by **Rilder** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 04:30

The panther has a pretty ugly texture on it, which is why I don't like it, Tiger looks alright I guess, I just don't like the look of it personally.

So...
Thresher?

FreudianSlip172 · Post by **FreudianSlip172** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 05:14

You're recommending a Boron ship based on its appearance? I guess there really isn't any accounting for taste.

I find the outrageous green behemoths a blight on my otherwise beautiful universe.

OP, bear in mind you don't need M3+'s to make your Panther effective. It's a solid combat ship without any fighters at all. You might find certain M4's to be extremely capable and cost-effective carrier fighters...

Spoiler

Show

The OTAS Solano M4 costs about 400k for the base hull, goes >200 m/s with six guns and can mount 3x 25 MJ shields.

Also, I want to fill a M1 or Panther with Kestrels full of missiles, and 100% fire probability. Add in a big serving of drones to taste and I suspect hilarity should ensue.

EDIT: now contains 50% less fail

God-Demis · Post by **God-Demis** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 05:30

egosoft or whoever is responsible has an issue about balance. There are so many ships, weapons and missiles that are worthless and they just don't seem to care about it. They just keep adding more and more ships, weapons and missiles...

infohata · Post by **infohata** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 06:34

God-Demis wrote:egosoft or whoever is responsible has an issue about balance. There are so many ships, weapons and missiles that are worthless and they just don't seem to care about it. They just keep adding more and more ships, weapons and missiles...

---
Show me a worthless weapon and I will tell it's use
Show me a worthless ship and i'm almost competent to find it's role
Show me a worthless missile and I will find it's target
---
Every object in X series has it's history and evolution. As in real life, not everything has a success to keep up with progress. However, I hate to find superior ships - and I am so happy to find flaws... for example Deimos - so nice in stats, but so bulky in practice...

And no bad words on Tiger! I like it. I am still flying it.. It's so effective that I keep only 3.2GJ shields on it. The thing is MAD sometimes... however, i was thinking to exchange it to Panther too, just as I plan not to drive it anymore, and it differs from Panther as it has main guns, panther has front turret. Well, it IS different for a personal drive, but same for AI. And with MARS onboard I think Panther can outrun Tiger.

Good thread, actually

kurush · Post by **kurush** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 07:09

Pretty much the only benefit of owning a Tiger is that you can charge IBLs on your front gun mount without switching to a turret and also that you have 8 of them. It comes at a cost of less guns on other turrets and lack of hangar. Both ships look equally awesome (like some sharp rusty iron)

Lancefighter · Post by **Lancefighter** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 07:59

The Tiger is a personal ship

The Panther is a fleet asset.

Use them accordingly.

killyg · Post by **killyg** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 08:07

a couple of things that might be overlooked about the tiger:
- both side turrets can load IBLs and hit frontal targets, if you set them to "Attack My Target" you essentially have 12x IBLs when making strafing runs
- it's much thinner, and other big ships will have a harder time hitting it

---
Show me a worthless weapon and I will tell it's use
Show me a worthless ship and i'm almost competent to find it's role
Show me a worthless missile and I will find it's target
---

don't mean to pick on you, and maybe everything has a history. But definitely not everything has a use:
- frag launcher
- hydra
- firefly

EDIT: also, the entire octopus line

OniGanon · Post by **OniGanon** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 08:28

infohata wrote:Show me a worthless ship and i'm almost competent to find it's role

Pirate Harrier Hauler
Teladi Kite
Pretty much any M4 Sentinel
Pirate Buster Hauler
Pirate Elite
Any Argon Nova except Raider
Teladi Kea
Boron Hydra

Rilder · Post by **Rilder** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 08:33

OniGanon wrote:
infohata wrote:Show me a worthless ship and i'm almost competent to find it's role
Pirate Harrier Hauler
Teladi Kite
Pretty much any M4 Sentinel
Pirate Buster Hauler
Pirate Elite
Any Argon Nova except Raider
Teladi Kea
Boron Hydra

All those ships except Hydra are good looking thus useful.

Catra · Post by **Catra** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 08:38

OniGanon wrote:
infohata wrote:Show me a worthless ship and i'm almost competent to find it's role
Pirate Harrier Hauler
Teladi Kite
Pretty much any M4 Sentinel
Pirate Buster Hauler
Pirate Elite
Any Argon Nova except Raider
Teladi Kea
Boron Hydra

nice list of cannon fodder

Goodfeller · Post by **Goodfeller** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 08:40

infohata wrote:Show me a worthless weapon and I will tell it's use

FBL ?

Elucca · Post by **Elucca** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 08:55

I agree the game has serious balance issues, and has had since Reunion. For example, I limit my usage of OTAS ships since they're just better. Why they would add ships that are better in every way than the rest, and also easily available and affordable, is beyond me.

I don't think a single player game needs to concern itself with balance as much as a multiplayer game, but there are so many very obvious, glaring, pointless imbalances...

AgamemnonArgon · Post by **AgamemnonArgon** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 09:25

X3TC is most likely the best game that I have owned. My preference is to have many ships, many choices, and this game offers that.
Haven't owned a Tiger, but I do have two Panthers. I have two Cerberus, and twenty Shrikes, with two Panthers.
Panther is the best ship in either X2, or TC, very enjoyable. At the moment I have an air wing of ten Rapiers, two Tenjins, one Eclipse, four Discoverers (Cartography ships), one Nova Raider, two Blastclaws (Prototype and Standard), one Pirate Elite, and a pair of Sabre's and two Cutlass. If they carry FTL, then it goes on the fighters.
It can be tricky to decide which ship to use, but overall, it is a multi purpose tactical dream. Cargo is good, hangar is excellent, and weapons slots are good. My second Panther only carries a half dozen fighters for perimetre defence, and it has four Heavy Centaur escort ships, patrolling Antigone Memorial.

infohata · Post by **infohata** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 09:31

OniGanon wrote:
infohata wrote:Show me a worthless ship and i'm almost competent to find it's role
Pirate Harrier Hauler

- good shot for a cheap alternative to M4 for a swarm
-- nice idea actually, i'll try those...

OniGanon wrote:Teladi Kite

- more or less agree, could stand if not speed, as it is shielded as for M4

OniGanon wrote:Pretty much any M4 Sentinel

- tank for speed - fair trade.. well, try to knock down even slow M4 with 25MJ shields sitting in buster or buzz...

~ "energy low".. - sounds familiar?

OniGanon wrote:Pirate Buster Hauler

- don't you think that 186 units of cargo for a cheap M4 is much? it IS a fair weed/fuel courier vessel, as originally intended to be...

OniGanon wrote:Pirate Elite

- cheaper alternative to legendary PNR - it's even faster! Well, less shields and firepower... but still, consider 6xPRG and 1 in tail...

OniGanon wrote:Any Argon Nova except Raider

- actually, it is my preference "stockable" M3..,
I'd agree with you only about Sentinel - it should have more shields, as is downgraded almost on everything, and it should be tanked. Probably bug. Otherwise - they all have their adjustments done properly according to the name function.
- Vanguard in practice can superceed Raider as it has more so precious energy for lasers available
- Nova [basic] model is much cheaper
- Prototype is superior to them all

OniGanon wrote:Teladi Kea

- Meant for profitsss... just look at the stomach (cargohold) !!! Weed smuggler's dream after Harrier Hauler..

OniGanon wrote:Boron Hydra

- I agree that it is bulky, but it's more flexible then dragon, can mount "space police" weapons (Ion Pulse Generator in particular) and has a decent stomach for M6. It is also second fast as easy buyable M6... Well, it is not powerful and not tank, but it has it's role... I was flying it in my earlier games... liked more then Dragon actually, as Dragon dies much faster... and it is a damn GOOD weapons dealer, just perfect - it can collect 8-10 PPC-like items around and return to warehouse. Or you better trust a cheap and slow TS/TP for the task - imagine your 8xPPC shipment worth 5-7M goes BOOM from a pack of so, according to you, useless Pirate Elites!

infohata · Post by **infohata** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 09:37

Goodfeller wrote:
infohata wrote:Show me a worthless weapon and I will tell it's use
FBL ?

well, it is hardly usable due to the way it works... but it is usable. Imagien granade launcher in space.. well, exactly! You need to get proficient with it... like with Aurora missile, which is useless unless you find a way... You need only to learn perfect timing with it...

OniGanon · Post by **OniGanon** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 11:03

M4 Sentinels don't have 25MJ of shielding. Well, the Buzzard Sentinel does, but at 111 speed it's a sitting duck. The rest of them have 15-20MJ and are all matched or outrun by a Nova Raider. Not good enough.

Speaking of the Nova, to be fair, that the other variants fall flat in comparison to the Raider isn't their fault, it's the Raider's. Following the pattern, the Raider should have one less shield. As it is, the Vanguard doesn't have enough going for it to compensate for 25 lost speed (let's face it, laser energy isn't as meaningful if you're probably just going to use PBGs and EBCs anyway), the Sentinel has nothing, and the basic is worse than the Raider in pretty much every way. I honestly forgot about the prototype; that is a very fine ship, only marred by the lack of PBG support.

As for using crappy M4s or the Boron Hydra for transporting stuff around, they have to compete with TM class ships like the OTAS Zephyrus, which has the price of an M4 with the shields, cargo space and speed to compete with M6s.

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Mon, 25. Jan 10, 11:17

killyg wrote:a couple of things that might be overlooked about the tiger:
- both side turrets can load IBLs and hit frontal targets, if you set them to "Attack My Target" you essentially have 10x IBLs when making strafing runs
- it's much thinner, and other big ships will have a harder time hitting it

That's the deal. The Tiger has 12 heavy lasers "forward", the Panther has 8.
Overcharging IBL doesn't help their DPS - only boosts the first impact.

In a longer fight this will even out since both have the same laser generator (a curiously stupid design decision...) but the Tiger can make fights short or unload it's energy, then go evasive / out of range until the next pass.

The Shrike is the Anti-Tiger. It has far less oomph and "runs out" of energy quickly but when killing something massive like an Osaka or a station, it comes out ahead because it has the highest sustained firepower.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Tiger vs Panther

Tiger vs Panther