[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...

[paulwheeler]

I guess here are no ownerless ships, as I've been looking for Enchanced Pericles in Savage Spur at given coords, but no luck :/

It's for SRM, TC version is 3.1.1. no Adv. Eclipse in Ocracoke's Storm as well

The Ship Rebalance Mod makes no changes to the Universe at all, so all vanilla abandoned ships are still there.

If you are not seeing any then it is not the SRM causing it.



If you are using the XRM, then this is the wrong thread.

[Mystra007]

Would it be possible to merge EMP-X (the extended version of EMP) with your Mod? EMP is merged with it, but contains about 20 wares. I'd like my/cycrow guilds scripts to be compatible with SRM but it's using EMP-X wares, and since SRM is already merged with EMP, the TWare from both conflicts.

[aerziel]

are all m5 suppose to be weaponless cause every m5 i see in this mod has no weapons I can equip

[irR4tiOn4L]

Hey, great work on this mod, looks fantastic

Theres a few things I dont like - the Terran station/MMBS/Mistral model replacements - the original Terran stations were very impressive, which I liked even if they were unwieldy, I didnt mind the original Mistrals and the MMBS - well it appears to have been changed only so it doesnt look like the Terran M1. But I know a lot of people do like these changes so ill just cut these changes out.

Going through the ship stats, which seem pretty good, ive noticed most fighters, M6's and some M1's are a LOT faster. I think that, given this TS/TP's need a speed boost or weapons+shielding boost to compensate - I know these are trade ships, but they shouldnt be outright sitting ducks and the idea in vanilla was that many had enough speed (100+) and shielding that M5's and M4's wouldnt kill them right away and many M3's and M3+, while faster, would take long enough to get to them that theyd run to safety. Now the fighters will have no trouble catching them making the TS/TP design rather obsolete in the X universe - if I were a trader or ship designer, id want to be upping the speed, shielding and weaponry on these right away because they operate, after all, in a hostile universe

The other major question i have is - whats up with the nerfing of the Elephant and TL speed in general (131 to 93 speed when most other ships are getting faster - seriously? Now most TL's are slower than M1's and much slower than M7's its not like they were fast to begin with) and why do Pirate versions of the TL's - eg the Mammoth - have so much higher speed? I cant see a reason to pick the Elephant now that most other TL's are almost as fast, often heavier shielded and generally carry far more freight. It used to have a reputation as a pocket battleship but honestly it was a very fragile one based only on its ability to run from M7's - not to mention it was probably the only reason to use that TL over the others. I notice its got heavier shielding but this is the case for all TL's - im not sure if it got a boost to laser recharge, but even if it did, the Elephant now just seems too slow and vulnerable to be a poor man's cruiser and too low in cargo space to be a first rate TL, making it a pretty awkward choice at best.

Otherwise, great work!

[Death03]

I have two advices about maintaince pod
1.it's repair rate is too cheap and too fast,1 quantum tube worth 3800+CR, one quantum tube is 200 shots,1 shot to repair 300+ hull.it will take only a few to repair a capital ship,with a cost of 10000~100000CR.Compare to shipyard repair and HQ repair cost,it's really overpowered IMO.the repair cost and repair time should both be mush mush higher.Maybe cost less (and slower with single pod) than HQ repair
2. it cannot repair your ships without direct control.As it will refuse to fire at ally target.maybe a special command needed to make it take care of repair work on its own.

[paulwheeler]

Hey, great work on this mod, looks fantastic

Theres a few things I dont like - the Terran station/MMBS/Mistral model replacements - the original Terran stations were very impressive, which I liked even if they were unwieldy, I didnt mind the original Mistrals and the MMBS - well it appears to have been changed only so it doesnt look like the Terran M1. But I know a lot of people do like these changes so ill just cut these changes out.

Going through the ship stats, which seem pretty good, ive noticed most fighters, M6's and some M1's are a LOT faster. I think that, given this TS/TP's need a speed boost or weapons+shielding boost to compensate - I know these are trade ships, but they shouldnt be outright sitting ducks and the idea in vanilla was that many had enough speed (100+) and shielding that M5's and M4's wouldnt kill them right away and many M3's and M3+, while faster, would take long enough to get to them that theyd run to safety. Now the fighters will have no trouble catching them making the TS/TP design rather obsolete in the X universe - if I were a trader or ship designer, id want to be upping the speed, shielding and weaponry on these right away because they operate, after all, in a hostile universe

The other major question i have is - whats up with the nerfing of the Elephant and TL speed in general (131 to 93 speed when most other ships are getting faster - seriously? Now most TL's are slower than M1's and much slower than M7's its not like they were fast to begin with) and why do Pirate versions of the TL's - eg the Mammoth - have so much higher speed? I cant see a reason to pick the Elephant now that most other TL's are almost as fast, often heavier shielded and generally carry far more freight. It used to have a reputation as a pocket battleship but honestly it was a very fragile one based only on its ability to run from M7's - not to mention it was probably the only reason to use that TL over the others. I notice its got heavier shielding but this is the case for all TL's - im not sure if it got a boost to laser recharge, but even if it did, the Elephant now just seems too slow and vulnerable to be a poor man's cruiser and too low in cargo space to be a first rate TL, making it a pretty awkward choice at best.

Otherwise, great work!

The Elephant and other TLs are not supposed to be "poor man's carriers". They are freighters and need to be defended.

The pirate versions are better in some respects and worse in others, plus you can't buy them anyway.

As for TS/TPs - maybe you need to think about providing an escort for your freighters if they are flying through hostile areas. Same with the TLs - they are freighters. They should not be fast and should be vulnerable to attack. Most of them have double the weapons on their rear turret over vanilla as well as a bit more laser energy.

[irR4tiOn4L]

The following is not meant to be overly critical, i do appreciate your work. Take it as an attempt at constructive criticism

The Elephant and other TLs are not supposed to be "poor man's carriers". They are freighters and need to be defended.

Doesnt answer the question. Why nerf them when all other ships are gaining in speed, why are pirate versions better and why make the Elephant the worst choice of TL?

The pirate versions are better in some respects and worse in others, plus you can't buy them anyway.

Thats not much of an answer. What makes these pirate versions much quicker? The fact you cant buy them doesnt really factor into why pirates are superior ship designers.

As for TS/TPs - maybe you need to think about providing an escort for your freighters if they are flying through hostile areas. Same with the TLs - they are freighters. They should not be fast and should be vulnerable to attack. Most of them have double the weapons on their rear turret over vanilla as well as a bit more laser energy.

Im more interested in the design choices. Put simply, you are exaggerating supposed qualities (who says freighters must be slow, weak and unarmed, ever heard of Q ships?) and starting from a false premise - that something 'should' be vulnerable. Its nice that they have a bit more laser energy and an extra gun, but thats not exactly much when every fighter in the universe is moving faster and packing guns that can strip your shields in a few seconds - in fact, whats the use of adding guns when shields are needed?

Vulnerability should be a result or side effect, not a design decision. First, let me point out that there is NO freighter designed to operate in a hostile environment - or provide, for example, tanker services to a battle fleet. Why? It would not be difficult to make one, or cannibalize a larger ship. The Elephant was the RIGHT direction, not the wrong one - it was the only example of a fleet tanker that should have been more common, not less. Military, tougher and faster TL's and freighters that sacrifice some outright capacity over civilian designs make a lot of sense and thats what people liked about the original Elephant - it more resembled a military tanker than a TL and could keep up with the M7's while having the capacity to refuel them

Also, yes, a civilian freighter designed to operate while mostly defended isnt going to be exceptionally well shielded or armed, but it does need to be cost effective and that means it needs to balance speed with fuel costs. Ie, it still needs to be as quick as possible but not as fast as a military version that sacrifices capacity for engines.

Previously, the balance made sense because you could say that fighters were an exception (being so small) and any larger ships - M6's and up - were just as slow as freighters. So it made sense that freighters werent faster. Now, with M6's going 200+ and even M7's approaching 150, it makes no sense for even smaller freighters to be stuck somewhere around 80.

You might say they need to be escorted (btw, this doesnt work well at all in X), but they will die regardless and more importantly - it just goes to show how unsafe the universe is, doesnt it. If youve upped the threat, you need to up the defences to compensate

[paulwheeler]

As a general rule pirate ships are faster with more laser energy but worse shielding. Its like this in vanilla too.

And, I say freighters should be slowish and weak. They are not unarmed and as I said have more weapons that vanilla.

If you prefer vanilla balance, then use vanilla. This mod is what it is.

The SRM is a very mature mod now and not much has changed for quite a while balance-wise. Most users are happy and I'm perfectly happy with the way the ships are balanced now.

I have effectively put this mod to bed now. I will be giving it an update with some of the bug fixes I made for XRM but that it.

[irR4tiOn4L]

As a general rule pirate ships are faster with more laser energy but worse shielding. Its like this in vanilla too.

And, I say freighters should be slowish and weak. They are not unarmed and as I said have more weapons that vanilla.

If you prefer vanilla balance, then use vanilla. This mod is what it is.

The SRM is a very mature mod now and not much has changed for quite a while balance-wise. Most users are happy and I'm perfectly happy with the way the ships are balanced now.

I have effectively put this mod to bed now. I will be giving it an update with some of the bug fixes I made for XRM but that it.

Vanilla pirate ships are not balanced like this with regard to freighters - the pirate TL's were nothing special in vanilla.

Slowish and weak sure, but as a result, not by design. Extra guns that wont change the outcome and no extra shields that will is split thinking. Slow should be an outcome of the ship's design and size, not a belief that they should be 'vulnerable'. They shouldnt be much slower than equivalently sized ships (M6's).

Finally, whether you or others like the mod, doesnt mean you cant entertain the thought. To be clear, im not asking for you to DO anything - i can just as easily make these changes myself, and run my own modded game. But I figure that you might like to know what i thought of that particular design choice and perhaps, in future and a different mod, it might change your choice if you agreed - PARTICULARLY of the need for 'fleet tankers' - both small, battle hardened freighters or converted M6's that can keep up with TM's and large, tougher converted TL's that are fast enough to keep up with M7's and M1's.

If thats not the case, fair enough, I just wanted to give a bit of feedback on why i disagreed with the choice.

[paulwheeler]

Perhaps a set of expensive military grade freighters would be good idea, but adding turrets is quite a bit of work... ill think about it.

[Alenar Rumanev]

Help with a cockpit mod issue:

I use the SRM and CMOD4 with TC 3.1 and installed the cockpit mod+gravidar modification listed on the first page. I am curious to know if two issues I have are bugs or if there is an easy way to fix them:

1- Message portraits have their tops cut off, along with the top of the cockpit, unless I pull back on the joystick (moving both the view and ship up).

2- A blank grey line cuts the shield/hull readouts on both sides of the gravidar, effectively cutting those readouts in tow and making it very difficult to understand them. I am currently running in a widescreen format (1920x1080) but switching to a lower res 4:3 rectangular format does not seem to fix either the top clipping issue or the readout issue.

Thanks for your help!

[paulwheeler]

You'd be best asking in PSCO1s thread. Its his cockpit mod made compatible with the srm.

[incarn]

Not sure if anyone but me will find this useful, but if you have MS Access 2007 or later (you can grab the free runtime ver off MS site) I put together a simple DB for SRM ships and thair weapons.

It is based on data exported from within game by using a script to create each ship in turn and dumping its info to an external file.

http://www.iinet.com.au/~incarn/SRMShipData.jpg

http://www.iinet.com.au/~incarn/SRMShipData.zip


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Images tags for oversized pic removed - Ketraar

[irR4tiOn4L]

Perhaps a set of expensive military grade freighters would be good idea, but adding turrets is quite a bit of work... ill think about it.

Military grade freighters, but more importantly - TL's (giant tankers essentially, capable of holding tens of thousands of ecells for multiple battleships and carriers) are something thats sorely needed in the game. Thats what i loved about the Elephant.

Ive gone over your changes in more detail ingame, and I suppose you can still use the Elephant (or any TL) to keep an M1 and M2 fleet supplied. I do have to wonder why youd want to buy the Elephant over the Orca at the moment (so little capacity), but thats a minor point. I still dont really understand why the speed was lowered though, they never really felt too fast as a class

On the freighters, i realise now that youve ALREADY upped the shielding very significantly on most freighters! My apologies, i did not realise this was the case. Some are also quite a bit quicker, but i still wonder if higher speeds would not have benefits for the economy and for usability - they will always be targets in any case.

I was a bit surprised by one of the new additions - the Terran mobile repair TL - its horrendously slow - at that speed it could never replace the MMBS in general service OR act as fleet tanker like the description says! Is it meant to be a repair ship?

Other than that, there is a hell of a lot to like in this mod, well done!

[paulwheeler]

The terran mobile repair TL can dock an M2. That is why it is so slow. It has to be slower than the slowest ship it can dock otherwise its silly.

[irR4tiOn4L]

The terran mobile repair TL can dock an M2. That is why it is so slow. It has to be slower than the slowest ship it can dock otherwise its silly.

Oh I didnt realise that. Thats true, a TL with docked M2 going faster than the M2 might be a bit silly - although perhaps you could argue that both the TL and M2's engines are used and their combined thrust to weight ratio improves?

Can the ship be used to repair a ship like the name suggests? Im just wondering what the function of the ship is. Btw, i tried many different ships (cheat scripts for testing) and had a lot of fun watching Nagoya's fighting Z's

[Halconnen]

I recommend using Tatakau's Marine Repairs or something to similar effect. Then fill the MRS with Marines with high mechanics skills. It'd then repair any ships that dock to it automatically, the dockable M2 included. (Though, of course the M2 could self-repair too if it has Marines on it.)

Alternatively, the Salvage Command Suite, that one specifically gives the MRS repair abilities, I think.

Or even Logain Abler's Production Modules, which can run on TLs and afaik can also be used to repair docked ships. (And are less of a cheat since they require resources.)

___

As far as Military Grade Freighters go, Baldric Superfreighters pack a whopping 6 x 200MJ(!), that is pretty decent, though they're still not really heavily armed.

I currently use an Elephant as mobile base myself (in XRM, that is), and I admit I resorted to overtuning it (+5 rudder and engine each, gives it about 130m/s and 0,7t/min, which is bearable, given I sit in it all the time), and I got to say the external M6/TS docking (2 slots) is extremely convenient. 4GJ of shielding (weakest TL, the Goner Asarja at 7GJ is darned sturdy), small frame (compared to the enormous Teladi-thing which makes asteroid-rich sectors a nightmare), laaarge internal hangar compared to other TLs, and triple-barreled turrets (for a total of 12 guns, 9 of which can be Phased Array Lasers) make for relatively good small-nasties-swatting.

I've been doing patrol missions in my M6, while always keeping the TL around, and as long as nothing bigger than enemy M6s is around, it stays alive and does a surprisingly good job of swatting M5s out of the air, so I'm happy with it for now. The weapon generators are weak, so they quickly run out of juice, though.

It is the cheapest TL of them all, too, which is why I initially decided to buy it.

But yeah, the cargobay is painfully tiny. I'm currently gearing up a Teladi TL to see how well it compares now that I have some money coming in. (But I'm already pissed off at it since it apparently can't dock M6s/TSs, while the elephant can. Heh.)

Note that all of the above pertains to XRM, but I don't think paul did much to change the TLs vs. SRM, at least not as far as I know.

[Yezandriel]

Hey,

got a little problem with the terran Phalanx SOWP. Brought a few to watch some minor gates, but apperently thats literally the only thing they do - watching.

Looked at the station parameters and commands, - nothing there.

IF i dock a fighter - i can transfer weapons, but i have no idea wich or how many it can use - it tried to sell the ones i transfered. Well, and the fighter explodes if it tries to undock.

Any Tips?

[paulwheeler]

Hey,

got a little problem with the terran Phalanx SOWP. Brought a few to watch some minor gates, but apperently thats literally the only thing they do - watching.

Looked at the station parameters and commands, - nothing there.

IF i dock a fighter - i can transfer weapons, but i have no idea wich or how many it can use - it tried to sell the ones i transfered. Well, and the fighter explodes if it tries to undock.

Any Tips?

Please read the instructions provided with the Shipyard Pack on how to deploy OWPs.

When you first place them they are just factories. They need to be swapped for the armed ship-versions via a simple hotkey. Its all in the readme.

[Korloros]

Is this compatible with Xtended?